bobber had his nose in the middle of things back then.
lowery was canned after losing on thursday night to the trees. he didn't even return to carbondale with the team. the next weekend, with bruce clearly on the way out at illinois, southern sent some folks to the big 10 tourney to let bruce know the job was his if he wanted it. after he got fired, he wanted time to look around, and kept southern at arms length. at first it looked like he was going to charleston before he headed to manhattan.
at that point, the SIU search committee, headed by mario, narrowed it down to three finalist: hinson, mueller and ray giocoletti. rodney watson got a courtesy interview, but i don't believe he was ever a serious candidate. keep in mind, southern was not offering much salary.
the league was pushing for a hinson return. mario, whose relationship with lowery was long broken, wanted someone he could work with, because he got along well with dale lennon. and thus we got hinson.
my memory at the time is that people were so fed up they would have given anybody a chance. but the hinson choice clearly did not seem like a home run to the masses. that said, i think people were accepting at first, but then things started to roll downhill, and barry became a caricature of himself. about three years in everybody knew what they had, and very few people saw that as the answer. of course, that led to four more years of the same, and by that point people were pulling out what little hair they had left.
Not to derail the thread, but honestly, I’d have rather had Muller than Hinson (and obviously Gard way more than either). Muller did make three Arch Madness finals, three more than the guy Mario hired. And yes, he faded badly. Who knows if he would have done better or worse if at Southern. Anyways…
Maybe, yeah. The decline of Muller was perplexing though at his alma mater. To go from a 28-7 (17-1) team in 2016-17 to non-competitive and seeing major roster turnover for the next 5 seasons. It's possible the tragic death of associate head coach Torrey Ward in that awful plane crash played a role in their gradual decline. They also had Dana Ford and Luke Yaklich on staff for at least the beginning of Muller's time there. Or Muller just didn't adjust at all after 2016-17.
@insaluki Your stock answer of "if they were good enough, they'd be playing" just doesn't hold water for me. Pretty sure we've had MANY players who took a redshirt year for development, when they were indeed good enough to be playing right away. Darren Brooks is the most obvious example.
If the coaching staff had a crystal ball that Brown & Harvey would be out most of the year or that our big men were going to be so ineffective, both Wonders & Ebube would've played and received considerable PT.
@insaluki I think OLE BALL COACH was fairly criticized, BUT I think that Mullins isn’t held to the same standard.
This has all the makings of the Muller situation at ISU. Things will get too bad, and it will be too tough for SIU to pull the trigger when they need to. (Please don’t construe this as negative. I’m just saying what it FEELS like. I hope to God it isn’t)I agree he was fairly criticized but he wasn't even given a chance on Day 1 from 90% of the people on here. I honestly believe that some actually wanted him to fail before he coached his first game, which is insane. Regardless of the coaches last name, regardless if you think they're smart, cool, etc. you should hold them all to the same standard. And the standard that I'm talking about is WINNING !!!
Memory is a funny thing; that's not how I remember it at all. There was some head-scratching for sure, including from me, but I think people mostly came around to the hire or were at least willing to give it's chance.
I think Spike might have been there only person who was resolutely against it from the get-go. I even remember arguing against him about whether MoSt had been shafted in 2006, and I know there were plenty of others. Turns out he was right, or at least I have come around to accepting his viewpoint.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is an archive of that old site, so there's no way to prove or disprove what either of us says. But I am POSITIVE that 90 percent of people were not hoping for him to fail.
Sorry, but that's absurd.
I clearly said 90% of the people didn't give him a chance, and SOME actually wanted him to fail. If I said what you did, yes that would be absurd but I clearly didn't say that.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I'm just saying that if either player was as good as Devries, do you think there is any scenario where they sit? You could come up with a list of redshirts that eventually turned out great (Brooks was one of my favorite players) but you have to admit that the list of redshirt players who didn't turn out is miles longer. Take a look at the last 10 years of 1st team all valley players. Without looking, I would bet a huge sum of money that they constitute a majority of players who did not redshirt their freshmen year.
They both are likely going to contribute and of course it's possible that either (or both) even turn out to be all valley before it's all said and done, but what doesn't hold water for me is those who are expecting that these 2 are going to come in, start and put these team over the top next season. While surely possible, I don't think it's likely.
@insaluki I think OLE BALL COACH was fairly criticized, BUT I think that Mullins isn’t held to the same standard.
This has all the makings of the Muller situation at ISU. Things will get too bad, and it will be too tough for SIU to pull the trigger when they need to. (Please don’t construe this as negative. I’m just saying what it FEELS like. I hope to God it isn’t)I agree he was fairly criticized but he wasn't even given a chance on Day 1 from 90% of the people on here. I honestly believe that some actually wanted him to fail before he coached his first game, which is insane. Regardless of the coaches last name, regardless if you think they're smart, cool, etc. you should hold them all to the same standard. And the standard that I'm talking about is WINNING !!!
Memory is a funny thing; that's not how I remember it at all. There was some head-scratching for sure, including from me, but I think people mostly came around to the hire or were at least willing to give it's chance.
I think Spike might have been there only person who was resolutely against it from the get-go. I even remember arguing against him about whether MoSt had been shafted in 2006, and I know there were plenty of others. Turns out he was right, or at least I have come around to accepting his viewpoint.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is an archive of that old site, so there's no way to prove or disprove what either of us says. But I am POSITIVE that 90 percent of people were not hoping for him to fail.
Sorry, but that's absurd.
I clearly said 90% of the people didn't give him a chance, and SOME actually wanted him to fail. If I said what you did, yes that would be absurd but I clearly didn't say that.
I do not recall anywhere near 90% not giving him a chance. We were really tired of Lowery and when fired coach was hired I did remember it always being a tough game when we played him at soulthwest missouri state even when we had good teams. I thought maybe with a chip on his shoulder he could turn it around. I didn't get down on him until the around the 4th or maybe even the 5th year and as I recall that was when most people were ready to move on. By that time it was clear why he had a long career of mediocrity and he had become an embarrassment with his excuses.
Verplancken 1.00%. D'Avanzo .8%. Trent Brown 1.00%(granted only 2 attempts but 77% for his career).
And you didn't say "very good". You said "lights out" which he wasn't by any stretch.
Coupet was a 6th year Senior in his mid 20s. He wasn't particularly impressive as a player.
Man if you are going to use percentages as part of your argument, at least learn how to display them properly. According to you, Verplanken shot 1%, meaning he made 1 of 100.
You're making a fool of yourself. And I still don't understand your fascination with getting kids straight from high school. Go get a 22 year old impact player that is ready to make an impact now. Anybody remember Barret Benson?? Just because a kid isn't 18 doesn't mean he can't be useful for SIU for a season or two. We have a core of players coming up as freshman. I like the core we have. We just need to add the pieces around them that are ready to win now. That will most likely come from the transfer portal or JUCO.
Sorry for misreading what you wrote--apologies for that.
What you clearly said was this: "he wasn't even given a chance on Day 1 from 90% of the people on here."
That is also absurd. It's not as absurd as my misrepresentation of what you wrote, but it's absurd.
(Inflammatory political snark)
Sorry for misreading what you wrote--apologies for that.
What you clearly said was this: "he wasn't even given a chance on Day 1 from 90% of the people on here."
That is also absurd. It's not as absurd as my misrepresentation of what you wrote, but it's absurd.
All good my friend and perhaps you're right, although absurd is a pretty strong word. I would have been offended 20 years ago before I became an "old man". LOL How about this, I feel strongly that Mullins gets the benefit of the doubt due to his name, his history here, etc significantly more than former coach. To be clear, I loved Mullins when he played here. I was beyond ecstatic when he was hired (in part bc of Barkeep-lol) and I STILL THINK he has the potential to do big things with this program.
I also, however, am concerned about the near future of the program. Our 2 best players are going to be seniors and the cupboard is not full to replace them when they are gone (I am aware they MAY come back after next season). And while this team CAN be near the top of the conference as soon as next season, multiple things would have to fall into place for that to happen. Like you, and every other non-troller on this board, I want go get back to WINNING. When Mullins was hired I envisioned this team winning and then getting highly sought after recruits which would not only allow them to win more but to sustain that success to become one of the dominant Mid Majors in the Midwest like we were back when I was younger.
On a final note, it's all in the name of Love for my alma mater. Peace Brother
I think at this point coach Mullins is a good defensive coach, but is very challenged on the offensive side. During Loyola's game on Saturday the broadcasters paraphrased something from Drew Valentine that struck me. They asked Valentine about being the youngest coach in D1. His response was that he admitted he still has a lot to learn and that he relies heavily on his older, experienced assistant coaches. If you look at SIU's assistant coaches they are either very young or relatively young. I think Mullins needs an older, veteran former head coach who has an offensive mind on his staff.
We need a couple player pieces to get over the hump, but I also believe we need a better offensive philosophy and better offensive sets. I hope ego doesn't prevent Mullins from bringing someone like that onto his staff.
Porter Moser may be a cautionary tale for Southern. He was pretty bad as Illinois State's head coach the 1st time around. However, after he was fired he spent a number of years as the associate head coach under Rich Majerus at SLU. He learned from a great coach and became a good coach at Loyola. Mullins didn't have that many years under Moser before he became our head coach. Offensively, I don't think he was ready. I certainly think he may be able to improve on the job with the right assistant. He is already way ahead of the curve defensively, his offensive coaching skills just need to catch up.
The offense is rough. Even in the games when SIU looked good on offense, there was always a stretch where they couldn't score. Too much Jones iso ball or throwing the ball to Domask in the post and having him back down a defender or pass to someone and not enough movement from the other players. I don't think the team had a problem with passing, it felt like they moved the ball pretty well. Just not enough playmakers around Jones and Domask. It's why I think SIU is 2 high-impact transfers away and don't think things are going to improve by just replacing Coupet with a ball-dominant guard.
The stats show the offense is getting better but it's not improving at a rate you want to contend in the Valley. The defense is top 100 but it doesn't make up for a 184th ranked offense.
There has NEVER been, in the history of the NCAA, a third year coach that has had to play against multiple 6th year seniors that were not from a medical redshirt. This is not the typical 3rd year. you can argue what you think all you want but this is a FACT. I am willing to give Mullins 7 more years because i know he is the right guy for the job. He will win eventually. And for all of you that keep saying we need to win in every post, every one knows we need to win.
I think at this point coach Mullins is a good defensive coach, but is very challenged on the offensive side. During Loyola's game on Saturday the broadcasters paraphrased something from Drew Valentine that struck me. They asked Valentine about being the youngest coach in D1. His response was that he admitted he still has a lot to learn and that he relies heavily on his older, experienced assistant coaches. If you look at SIU's assistant coaches they are either very young or relatively young. I think Mullins needs an older, veteran former head coach who has an offensive mind on his staff.
We need a couple player pieces to get over the hump, but I also believe we need a better offensive philosophy and better offensive sets. I hope ego doesn't prevent Mullins from bringing someone like that onto his staff.
Porter Moser may be a cautionary tale for Southern. He was pretty bad as Illinois State's head coach the 1st time around. However, after he was fired he spent a number of years as the associate head coach under Rich Majerus at SLU. He learned from a great coach and became a good coach at Loyola. Mullins didn't have that many years under Moser before he became our head coach. Offensively, I don't think he was ready. I certainly think he may be able to improve on the job with the right assistant. He is already way ahead of the curve defensively, his offensive coaching skills just need to catch up.
One could argue ( and I will) Moser is still not much of a coach. He got lucky with Krut
I think at this point coach Mullins is a good defensive coach, but is very challenged on the offensive side. During Loyola's game on Saturday the broadcasters paraphrased something from Drew Valentine that struck me. They asked Valentine about being the youngest coach in D1. His response was that he admitted he still has a lot to learn and that he relies heavily on his older, experienced assistant coaches. If you look at SIU's assistant coaches they are either very young or relatively young. I think Mullins needs an older, veteran former head coach who has an offensive mind on his staff.
We need a couple player pieces to get over the hump, but I also believe we need a better offensive philosophy and better offensive sets. I hope ego doesn't prevent Mullins from bringing someone like that onto his staff.
Porter Moser may be a cautionary tale for Southern. He was pretty bad as Illinois State's head coach the 1st time around. However, after he was fired he spent a number of years as the associate head coach under Rich Majerus at SLU. He learned from a great coach and became a good coach at Loyola. Mullins didn't have that many years under Moser before he became our head coach. Offensively, I don't think he was ready. I certainly think he may be able to improve on the job with the right assistant. He is already way ahead of the curve defensively, his offensive coaching skills just need to catch up.
One could argue ( and I will) Moser is still not much of a coach. He got lucky with Krut
Moser took a mid major with good, but not great talent to the final 4 and sweet 16. Krutwig was a good player, but he was no Danny Manning. They ran a very efficient offense and played outstanding defense. Those last 4 Loyola teams were well coached.
I think at this point coach Mullins is a good defensive coach, but is very challenged on the offensive side. During Loyola's game on Saturday the broadcasters paraphrased something from Drew Valentine that struck me. They asked Valentine about being the youngest coach in D1. His response was that he admitted he still has a lot to learn and that he relies heavily on his older, experienced assistant coaches. If you look at SIU's assistant coaches they are either very young or relatively young. I think Mullins needs an older, veteran former head coach who has an offensive mind on his staff.
We need a couple player pieces to get over the hump, but I also believe we need a better offensive philosophy and better offensive sets. I hope ego doesn't prevent Mullins from bringing someone like that onto his staff.
Porter Moser may be a cautionary tale for Southern. He was pretty bad as Illinois State's head coach the 1st time around. However, after he was fired he spent a number of years as the associate head coach under Rich Majerus at SLU. He learned from a great coach and became a good coach at Loyola. Mullins didn't have that many years under Moser before he became our head coach. Offensively, I don't think he was ready. I certainly think he may be able to improve on the job with the right assistant. He is already way ahead of the curve defensively, his offensive coaching skills just need to catch up.
One could argue ( and I will) Moser is still not much of a coach. He got lucky with Krut
Moser took a mid major with good, but not great talent to the final 4 and sweet 16. Krutwig was a good player, but he was no Danny Manning. They ran a very efficient offense and played outstanding defense. Those last 4 Loyola teams were well coached.
In their final 4 run Krut averaged 10.2 points a game. Like you said, very good player but not like they were just throwing it down low to him and he did everything. They were very well coached. That defensive scheme works, you could even see it at Oklahoma this year.
